Velcro Dogs! How to Address Separation Anxiety
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Master Dog Trainer, Toriano Sanzone, has been training Professionally for 21 years. Toriano Sanzone founded DOPA DOGS in 2001 which became Sanzone School of Dog Training which finally became Wolfkeeper University. Wolfkeeper University has trained thousands of Dogs all around the world and has worked with some of the Greatest Dog Trainers in the World.
Hello dog lovers and welcome to another informative episode of The Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Let's all learn something new from today's guest, Toriano Sanzone, and he is going to be chatting about velcro dogs, and how to address separation anxiety. Toriano thanks so much for being with us today.
Thank you. How are you, Krista?
I am good. And I'm excited to have you teach us more about separation anxiety. So why don't you introduce yourself because you are an expert and tell us why you're so passionate about training dogs and about dog behavior in general.
I am super passionate about training dogs, primarily because I've been training dogs and exposed to dogs since I was four years old. That's important because why are you so intuitive, like I was pushed into it. my mom raised Afghan hounds back in 1978 in Illinois, we had four of them. That's a very challenging dog acting down dog, what I grew up with. So always from ‘78 till when I professionally started training dogs in 2000. Just seeing how you can transform a person's life. I see that the dog manifestation that's going on in the person's world and just just the magic the dog brings as human beings and I've seen so many case stories and miracles I could talk about forever and why I love helping people train their dogs to be great canine good citizens.
And you are the wolf keeper.
I am the wolf keeper!
I love it. Well, I think this is so timely because obviously we've been living through this pandemic and things are kind of getting back to normal but that means that instead of spending 24/7 with our dogs that we've been doing over the past year, we are leaving them alone again for longer periods of time and many dogs are freaking out with separation anxiety. So I think this statistic is probably old but I heard that 13% to 18% of dogs show signs of separation anxiety and it's diagnosed in 20% to 40% of dogs that are referred to behavioral specialists like yourself. Is that still the case? Or do you think there's more dogs suffering from this?
Wow that's that's interesting source. Yeah, I would say that is higher. you know that those percentages just primarily because one due to the pandemic, I know the dog industry went up by 300%. So now is this pandemic puppy and it's not that hard to create separation anxiety in the dog. I would be as bold to say that close to 50% to 60% of dogs in America have some form of separation anxiety.
Okay, so you're working with this with clients every single day?
I mean because primarily separation anxiety is really easy for that to happen to the animal. I mean so for example, just take the dog I'm dealing with right now. you know a person gets beautiful little Chow Chow puppy, who are some of the cutest little puppies in the world. is just a little ball of fur. Literally little bitty legs, stubby legs. And what was the first thing you want to do Krista? Is You want to pick it up and carry it. How can you not…
Yeah, you want to cuddle that little thing.
It’s like a little bear. but the thing that ends up happening is that, then the dog has pitocin levels, and all the different just chemicals that make a baby duck follow mama duck or why children, the little baby that reaches up. Pick me up, pick me up. It's so easy to create that into a dog as a puppy versus don't pick up the puppy is like who can't pick up a puppy. That's so mean cruel. Exactly. Like I really pick them up don't pick them up all the time. That's impossible. So what ends up happening is that it’s kind of like the entryway to separation anxiety. I was at a party on Tuesday were my close friend of mine, close to 20 years. His wife said I have someone that's going to dog sit and that’s going to sleep in the bed with my two pitbulls when I’m not here. and she is she meant that 100%. 100,000% she meant that. So what ends up happening is that when does a dog get kicked out to bed? so if you're a single person, the dog might get kicked out because now you're engaged with another dog owner. the dogs starts saying know what? If I'm kicked out the bed I'm gonna cry. You know whine. Some dogs they're not going to cry or whine kick me out the bed. I'm gonna go pee on the carpet. Some dogs say I'm gonna pee on your pillow. some dogs say. I'm gonna pee and bark. Some dogs are gonna pee, bark, and poop. Yeah. And vomit. You know, I'm gonna pee, bark, poop, vomit, and I'm going to bite whatever I perceive to be kicking me out of the bed. You know. So there’s different levels to the separation anxiety and it really doesn't take much for the dog to get there.
Yeah. So are you saying essence that much of this behavior is because we have allowed this to happen? this codependent relationship to form in the first place?
Absolutely.
One of my mentors, who I super love, Cesar Millan told me directly to my face one time he said, people they love their dogs and they don't understand dog psychology. You know so, dog psychology says that a dog needs its own den. So that cute little, little gorgeous… I do not have a dog specifically in my head cuz I'm training to Chow Chow puppy right now. Even for me, it's so hard to resist wanting to pick this puppy up and put him inside the crate, put them inside of his kennel, but he has to live inside of his kennel because then the dog says hey, you know what? When you go to work, I'm going to go inside my condo. Meaning when you have company over I'm going to go inside of my condo. You know when we travel in the car, I'm going to travel, not just in the car when we're traveling inside the condo which is inside with the car because thing I tell people the only thing that will be consistent in your dog's life. No matter where you travel, no matter who you bring into the household. No matter how many animals you bring into the household, will be their dog crate. Most dogs aren't crated. people have tons of aversions to crating their dogs. I've heard literally every possible reason why not to crate the dog. It just doesn't take much for the dog to be dependent upon codependent upon following you around the house or wanting to be picked up or sitting in the chair. Or sees you on the couch, because we've not intentionally methodically create space for the dog to be independent.
Yup. When a puppy is born, is this already in their DNA? Is this an instinct that they have? That you know they want to stay with the pack? So when they are separated from the pack? That's when the separation anxiety is triggered? Is that right? That they're just born with this?
Absolutely Krista. Yeah, absolutely so yeah, let's capitalize on that right there. So you take the oldest relationship between an animal and human is what? the wolf Wolf, right? So you go back to cave person throws bone over shoulder, wolf sniffs bone and eats bone. caveman throws bone a little bit closer. Wolf get a little bit closer caveman gets to the point where you test the wolf. And now cave person and wolf start to go out together. patrolling looking for more bones. Right? It’s that simple. At a certain point the cave person says hey, you know what? Let's intentionally train this wolf to help me gather more food. So the relationship between human and wolf was just strictly for food. Then it became food and hunting you know hunting what hunting other humans hunting, food hunting for truffles hunting for whatever, right? So then, but then at that time, all of a sudden, the beginning of the wolf all the way probably until like the early 80s. You know, the relationship between human and canine fast forward from wolf to actual canine was you know I call it the basement dog or the dad dog. The dog that lived outside. Like when the dog was in the basement dog or the dad dog that you know it definitely before this there weren't tons of doggy beds in the 80s. Now a dog bed is just as expensive as a human bed. , Now there wasn't doggy daycare .there wasn't dog parks. there wasn't dog cafes. there wasn't dog friendly hotels in the 80s. Are you kidding me? check in me and Rufus. You know now condos… our condo has a dog park and we have a dog grooming salon. You know, I'm the resident dog trainer, you know .so as the relationship with wolf to canine changed and the dog became more of a true family member, meaning as I was saying earlier, my friend Dee completely admitted, I want my dog to sleep in the bed with me, period. And when i go out of town, I want a dog nanny that's going to sleep in the bed with my dog. That's a requirement. She said I love you…this just happened Tuesday… I love you. Why don't I take care of your dog? Toriano, because I know you're going to put them in a crate. And when I leave, I want someone who's going to sleep in the bed with them and cuddle with them the way I do. So because of that the relationship has become so close between canines and human,s we're not we're just out hunting with them. And you're a piece of equipment that is strictly used to hunt the rabbit and we're not hunting the rabbit. They're out in the shack in the back of the farm, you know, living next door to the pigs and the cows. Now that same Beagle is living in a high rise and its name is Annabel and Annabel has a dog bed in the living room. And then one in the bedroom. You know and Annabel gets to sleep in the bed occasionally, if not all the time. And we'll go into doggy daycare. So all these different things that made the dog say hey, you know what, you do all these things for me. when you're not there, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna cry, I'm going to bark, right. Or if I associate the new baby with that reason that I’m not in the bed, then I'm going to maybe growl at that baby. or associate the new boyfriend and girlfriend with the reason why I'm not in the bed anymore. We're gonna bark and growl at them. Or if I associate you leaving the house, and leave me alone in this huge condo, to walk around by myself, when you come back, I'm going to destroy stuff, because you have trained me to be dependent upon you for everything. So that's why I would say separation anxiety, is pretty much I would say for sure. 50% dogs if not higher, because it would mean that a person understood dog psychology to a to a level that they would intentionally, not accidentally do anything that would create the anxiety in the dog that could be very costly and destructive, and life threatening to both that dog other dogs, other animals and humans.
What a great point. Yeah, it is a different world on how we treat our dog.
In fact, if I just interrupt you for a second. this just came to my mind. I can actually so I'll give you an example about a chow chow puppy that I have in training right now. That's like eight weeks old, right? But eight years ago, I trained a chow chow puppy and I told him, I told this woman, Hey, you know what, you're gonna have to really follow this to a tee because if separation anxiety enters this dog, it can become highly destructive, right? So fast forward, you know what would happen six years from now exact same conversation? the dog bit the mom really bad. Put about 20 stitches in her arm. Six years later from that same conversation I said you have to do everything to a tee, with this particular breed or really any breed, but specifically that breed because chow chows are some of the most dominant. Either, they're hunting dogs, they're fighting dogs, right? They have all that fur for when they fight, the other animal that is attacking them. They're not grabbing anything but fur. you have to really penetrate in order to get to their skin. That's how they were raised and developed. So but the dog bit the mom because that same client that I met six years ago, I saw that dog go from a puppy to where it was just the woman that was single, too. I watched her get the boyfriend. the boyfriend became the fiancee. then the fiancee became the husband. And they went from being newlyweds, to parents, all those different transitions. The dog finally said, Hey, you know what? It used to be just you and me. Lisa. Those days are gone. So when the mom came into the house, the dog’s like, Oh, no, I dealt with this guy. Who used to come around that went from a boyfriend to a fiancee to a husband and now a dad. Follow me? boyfriend, fiancee, right? Newlyweds, dad, right? What happened to our relationship? It was just you and I, Mom, right? And now there's this little creature walking around that was in your belly …because my sense of smell is 300:1. I know the day that he was conceived. Right? I know that it was in your belly. Right? And that's a potential threat too to me now because your body chemicals are changing. your estrogen levels are changing right? The things that made me want to follow you around now are changing. I don't recognize that smell. Oh wow now you just brought the thing that made that smell happen home? and now it's him? and that ,oh wait who is she coming into the household? Oh heck no, I can't do all this!
Well, Toriano I'm gonna stop you right there so we can take a quick commercial break. I want to continue this story we're on a good roll here so we will be right back.
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We're back with Toriano talking about separation anxiety and Toriano you were just telling us about this chow chow that pretty much was given full license and no wonder thought that he was the dominant one of the whole family. How did that story end? you said that he finally bit the owner?
Well he bit the mother of the owner. Dog psychology says The dog says you know what? This person is a threat to our pack. Because the pack is built on me being dependent upon you. the pack is built on me being touched by you, by sleeping with you, by eating in the kitchen with you, by sleeping on the couch with you, right? by having complete autonomy with you. you start slowly giving up that autonomy mainly just because you know at the same time maybe because you realize that the fur, the baby's allergic to the fur. or that you just don't want the dog in the bed on your wedding night or whatever whatever the case might be. putting the dog in a situation to make that primal decision right to either pee, bark, whine, cry, growl or biter, attack and that's what happened with the dog and in fact the mom, the family said the dog was ultimately destroyed you know. but that could have all been prevented. Had they really trained the dog when he was a baby.
That's such a great point. Well you mentioned in the beginning you know the signs of separation anxiety you know the barking, whining, drooling, pacing, soiling in the house, destruction. So is this similar to a panic disorder that we experience as humans? I know their cortisol goes up.
Oh absolutely i mean it's just like, you could meet someone that you love you know I just recently got married. I'm joking, but seriously I love her. so we work together. we literally met February 25th last year. We were literally around each other every day since then. Like she's right here with me right now. Like literally. we traveled from Chicago to California four times this year. You know, that's 36 hours in the car X 4. you know so yeah when she's not around I get separation anxiety. but you know, even with humans you know it has to be a balance. Why? You know even your greatest couples why unfortunately you hear the sad story when one dies the other died you know because they've become chemically dependent upon each other you know, we're in a hotel room, we're in Nashville right now. There's no way I'm sleeping in the other bed!
No, because we train our bodies to become chemically dependent upon x. Whatever x is. The x is a kid. whether x is a puppy or the x is a baby or the x is other humans. My Mom was a kindergarten teacher, you know, some children on the first day of school, they are freaking out, like, No, no, they can't. But that's primarily because when they were babies, they were held a lot. Now, of course, hold your baby, but there has to be a balance to it. Right? You know, there has to be a balance of saying, Hey, you know what, you're going to go over to your cousin's house today. Little baby. newborn. you're gonna go over to grandma's house, little baby, newborn. So fast forward, some kids, you will with no, with summer camp, some don't know, it just depends on how you raise them. Same thing with the dog. We think of the word isolation as a mean word. but if you think about it is really just a form of meditation, the ability to be alone, to be calm, to be to be relaxed, in super low stimulus situations to high stimulus situations. So in the canine world, what does that mean? Here's a pop quiz question for you. What’s a dog that absolutely, positively, can not have separation anxiety? If you're training a police dog. A police don’t can’t have separation anxiety. Why? Because before he gets to come out of the car, he has to be able to sit in the car and wait until someone goes to retrieve them to do the drug search on this car that police officers pulled over. Right? He he has to be super calm and relaxed before he goes into that stadium and start searching for a bomb that might kill hundreds of 1000s of people, right? He has to be super calm and relaxed before he goes to search in the rubble, in shrapnel, and, and all these things that can endanger his paws searching for people in 911, you know, or, you know, so that dog absolutely has to be raised in a way that he cannot have separation anxiety, or he will not be able to perform a task, the task that we're training a dog to perform, literally, is life and death. Does that make sense? So that training is very specific. The interesting thing, Krista, is that every dog needs to have a variation of that kind of training, in order to coexist, because your dog might not be going to search for a bomb. But that little Beagle has to be super duper calm and relaxed. And what? Krista brings home brand new baby, brand new puppy, brand new kitten, brand new significant other. that relative that you didn't know that will be living with you for the next eight months, right? Their dogs should be unbothered by any new stimulus that you're introducing to it. But that's not accidental. And that's why people should definitely search for professional to help them train their dogs to avoid that later, because one, like I said, it can be very expensive, just training wise, I mean, for example, if you chose a Yorkie that had that a high level of separation anxiety, now there needs to be a dog camp to live with me for four to five months, you know, we're charging $7,000 per month to keep a dog. That's just normal puppy. But separation anxiety, that's a lot of work and time and that’s why it's so expensive. At least how we do it because when you're weaning that dog chemically off whatever it has become dependent upon, it can easily lose weight, it can easily exasperate some other kind of illness that was in it, when you're going through it. So you have to not only train the dog, you have to like really pay attention to all the medical things that can go and help thing that belongs to dog while in the process of getting it to the point of not needing any kind of being codependent on anything. Right? In addition to that, just depending upon the dog, and the breed, it can be dangerous when you're training it. So this chow chow, when it finally did make it back to me… I trained him. Six years ago when he was a puppy I met him again after he bit the mom. but at that point in time, no one could touch the dog because if he wasn't around his owner, right, he was completely aggressive and dominant. She had gotten to the point where just to even cut his nails just even the pressure, she would give him tranquilizers. She got to the point where he became dominant with her because he said, Hey, I'm the boss in all categories. And also living with a dog that you can't even brush yourself. You know, living with a dog that is so dangerous and aggressive that there's no way you trust them around another human. Right? That is a potential recipe for the highest level of disaster possible, which is why… here's a stat for you. This was in 2008 that every year 800,000 people were critically injured by dogs. of that 44,000 were face bites to children and that was back in 2008. You can find that in my book. A Wolf Keepers Guide to Training a Dog. And those were bites that by law if you’re bit by a dog and you go to the hospital, it shows up in the bite report. The dog has to be quarantined, if it doesn't have rabies. So but most of those dogs that are biting humans it’s definitely due to separation anxiety because something in your life, stimulus occurred that changed the pattern they became accustomed to and they aggressively react.
It makes total sense. We've conditioned them to, as we've been talking about be codependent on us. So because this is such a in depth issue that we have to correct? Are there any tips that you can give us of things that we can do at home to set our dogs up for success to be more independent?
Absolutely. I would say for our listening audience, your top five things you can do to avoid separation anxiety. So #1 you want to get your puppy from a reputable breeder. Just start there, get a puppy, they're cheaper, they're much cheaper than shelter dogs or dogs that you’re adopting that's a whole nother type of animal to train from day one, right? So let's just talk about take the time to invest in getting a puppy because even then, I'm interested in then that's step one, get a puppy and then step two is find a breeder that understands separation anxiety. For example I breed Rottweilers and Frenchies and German Shepherds. My dogs when my puppies are like five weeks old, I give them at least 10 to 15 minutes three times a day alone so that They aren't even dependent upon their littermates when they're only five weeks on this planet. So when my puppies go on to eight weeks, people are like oh my god, this is so insane. This puppy isn’t crying. This. puppy isn’t yelping. this puppy is so they physically look different. Right, your eyes I say that their eyes sit different, because you taught them to be independent from the day one, from the beginning. So that's one, find, get a puppy from a reputable breeder. to get a breeder that understands separation anxiety, and that's one thing as early as five weeks to prevent separation anxiety. Number three, you have to understand the dog psychology of why you need to kennel/crate dogs and they have to have their own condo. That's a whole nother conversation by itself of the dog psychology of what goes on behind having a dog crate. Fourthly, getting a dog is very time consuming because you just have a brand new baby. So a person really has to make a schedule and say hey, you know what, you're going to go to grandma's house on this day. you're going to go to doggy daycare on this day. You're going to stay with my best friend on this date. when you create an infrastructure and ecosystem of where your dog can go different places that don't that aren't dependent upon you because now you're creating a dog that can 100% function. So case in point, my labrador, I've literally had to have had to go get him from people I let watch him. Hey, I need my dog back. Can I just keep him a couple more days, please? Because I have multiple people that have allowed him to live with them because I wanted him to be 100% codependent, I mean dependent upon himself. So I'm in Nashville. Where is Madison? Madison is in Chicago. Madison probably lived his four years on this planet with at least six other people. Madison can go with anyone because he’s been trained to go with anyone, right? So you have to put a system in place for your dog to have a world that is bigger than just you in your condo. So number one, find a reputable breeder and number two, get a breeder that understands separation anxiety and number three, crate your dog. Number four, put together a schedule for your dog that he has different places, he or she has their own places to go that aren't dependent on you. I would say number five is actually is my number one. Commit to dog training. Because I trained dogs at a certain point at such a higher intelligence level. The more intelligence that the dog has on it, the more the dog says hey, you know what, Krista? Too much you and I time.
they come he'll know rollover, weave, walk backwards, fetch, retrieve, you know crawl. I'm good. I'm good and know, every dog should know at least 30 to 35 commands. At the very minimum, if not more. a service dog knows up to 60 commands. When you're around a dog that knows up to 30-35 commands. When you're not around, you know where they want to be Krista? in their crates because dogs are den creatures. Dogs can sleep. This is a human thing that we impose upon dogs, that dogs need constant activity. No, you can create create separation anxiety when you leave the TV on because the dog is exposed to different varying voices of watching Judge Judy to watching Jerry Springer. That’s creating anxiety to the dog right? I know what's about to happen. This means you're about to leave. I'm about to get stuck in with all these crazy noises all day. All these different voice tones, right? But the trained dog says hey, you know what? When you leave because you engage with me so much I want to go inside of my den, inside of my lair, inside of my condo, inside of my crate inside of my cave, going back to the wolf and I want to sleep for 10 to 15 hours, right? the animal can easily sleep for 10 to 15 hours, right? Let me be, that's why you can see, I can tell a dog has had a trained professional trainer, he's still a trained dog, because your eyes are different. They’re almost like that gorilla, that is sitting at the zoo, that's just sitting there so calm and relaxed, where it's almost eerie, right? A trained dog has that same disposition, where they're just there. Like their eyes are so deep, like in a Buddhist, kind of a meditative state. But that's just through a high level of training. Every dog should receive a leash in its life, you know, consistently to be on and off leash trained and to be able to perform that on and off leash training in like super high stimulus situations, I mean, being able to be at a party with 30-40 people. So we're not only just training the dog to be a great Canine Good Citizen, we get to train the dog to be cool in a lot of different variants, situations. most incidents happen at family functions. And nowadays, sometimes the person doesn’t have to do anything at all, they could just be sitting there. some alcohol levels can affect the dog, especially dogs with separation anxiety, right? certain levels of smoke can affect the dog. large amounts of food can affect the dog. And also the dog has to be able to be calm and relaxed in so many different situations. And that's just the dog that is well behaved with no separation anxiety. but you take a dog that has separation anxiety, and you put them in that same exact situation, is that more likely going to happen to them at some point in their life, you’re really rolling the dice. And it's not even a 50/50 chance. It's more like, yes, there's a greater like a 60% to 70% chance your dog's going to do something that could have you in court before it dies. So that's why number five, which actually is number one, make sure your dog is thoroughly trained.
Well, this has been amazing. We are already out of time, unfortunately. Toriano we have to have you back because obviously there's so much more to all of this, you know canine behavior and we need to set our dogs up for success for a life with totally different situations. That they can't just be our little babies glued to us 24/7. So this has been amazing. Toriano where can everyone find out more information about you and Wolf Keeper University?
Of course they can find out more about our programs if they go to WolfKeeperU.com They can also follow us on Instagram @woldkeeperuniversity2020 like 2020 vision, okay. And also too, they can go to Apple. And we have 200 plus podcasts on Apple and on PodBean. if you type in WolfKeeper podcast there’s 200 or so podcasts floating around. By the end of the year, those podcasts will be also transcribed in terms of books, we'll be releasing our first 50 this month. We'll be releasing 50 every month at the end of the year to release the 200 podcasts that we did last year. and also they can go to Amazon and purchase our book A Wolfkeeper’s Guide to Training a Dog.
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wolfkeeper_university_2020/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/toriano.sanzone.3726
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toriano-sanzone-6b824b175/
Wow, so many different things. And you have clients all over the world, right?
Yeah, we're actually my wife and I were we're going to be training dogs in Greece this winter and spring, and we'll be having residency in Greece and in Chicago. we have trainers, we have a fabulous team of trainers in Chicago, led by Tyrone Scott, who's been training for 20 years. Taryn Reidy, who's our new lead trainer in our junior trainers. Henry and Josh, and just insane to also for some things that we're going to be doing in 2021, where we're going to be combining dog training and yoga together. My wife, she's a yoga instructor. So if you guys have not seen any of our yoga videos before, we're doing dog yoga, which also goes back to the separation anxiety because ultimately, for the animal or the human, to be able to be alone for a period of time, it's just a form of meditation, relaxation, so stay tuned for that also.
I love everything that you're doing Toriano. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all of this great information. Everybody, please go find out more about Toriano and his podcast and his book. There's lots of more information to learn. So Toriano, thank you so much.
Thank you so much. Appreciate you.
Again, thanks to ABSC Organics, makers of the ABSC Pure Organic CBD Oil for sponsoring this episode.
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Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode?