What's in the Bottle?

Hello everyone, this is Krista with episode number 115 of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. this is interesting. 45% of dogs sleep in their owner’s bed. And speaking of sleeping, all dogs dream, but puppies and senior dogs dream more frequently than adult dogs. I didn't know that.

Welcome to the Wag Out Loud Podcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.

We appreciate our friends at Finnessiam Health for sponsoring today’s episode. You don’t want to subject your dog to dyes, fragrances, parabens, silicones and other harsh chemicals do you?  These toxins, commonly found in most pet grooming products are having a harmful effect on your dog.  Why not be confident in using only non-toxic, gentle, yet highly effect grooming products like those in the Finnessiam Health Lineup?  I’ve tried several of the Finnessiam products on my dog Winston and am a huge fan!  Many of the items include colloidal silver, known to act as an antibacterial and anti inflammatory.  Remember, the skin is the body’s largest organ so, let’s ditch the harsh chemicals and synthetic colors, fragrances, and ingredients that can hurt your dog. Treat your dog to the all-natural Finnessiam products at FinnessiamHealth.com and be sure to use the code WOL15 at checkout to receive 15% off.  Your dog will thank you!

Welcome dog lovers, we have another informative episode of The Wag Out Loud pawdcast and thrilled that you are here. Today we have Wendie Patrick, and she is here to chat with us about What's in the Bottle. It's a quick dive into ingredients and why you should care. So Wendie, please introduce yourself and share your mission of helping your clients lead happier, healthier lives.

Originally from Northern Ireland, Wendie Patrick now calls the picturesque Gaspereau Valley in Nova Scotia home, where she owns and runs Dogs of Pride & Finnessiam Holistic Health.  Wendie helps her animal and human clients lead happier, healthier lives by identifying nutrient deficiencies, sensitivities or allergies to food or chemicals in their environment.  She makes her own line for animals, including a CBD alternative, under the Finnessiam brand which name stems from the three dogs in the Dogs of Pride logo, Finn, Jesse and William. Wendie is happily owned by two dogs, two cats and two horses!

Absolutely. Krista, thank you so much for having me. Very excited to be on Wag Out Loud today. And I'm a certified master groomer and I retired actually due to health reasons I had like her have or had Lyme disease. But originally from Northern Ireland, lots and lots of strings to my bow. And from the the grooming side of stuff, it helped me open doors into what am I putting on this dog? What am I putting on my skin to put on the dog? And why is nobody talking about this, or people who have tried to talk about it for years, myself included for the past 10 years. And lots of people still don't actually care. So that's kind of where I'm at at the minute I'm what I work towards is trying to get education out there, trying to help people understand why it does matter. And a lot of things are starting to change in the industry, and in the natural healthcare world and in the cosmetics world. So I think there's a big growth and boom, in the sense of stuff exposing itself and getting exposed and being talked about. So I'm kind of right in the middle of all of that. And I like to stand in the middle with my big spoon and stir the pot a little. bit more.

Great. Well, let's start stirring. I am so glad that you're here with us today. And let's start with you and I have both seen you know people that read all of the labels that go into their food and products. And we want to make sure that our family is organic and chemical and hormone free and sustainable products that we use. But don't you notice that a lot of us do not even think about this when it comes to our dogs. So why do we forget about all this good stuff that we're doing for ourselves and not do the same for our dogs?

Well exactly Now. I mean you can say that that's very true when it comes to nutrition that everybody reads the labels. And a lot of people are really starting to wake up and read the labels and understand a little bit more about nutrition when it comes to their pets health, dietary wise. But realistically, when was the last time you stood in your own shower and turned your shampoo bottle around? certainly, once we, you know, hit that wonderful age of, I can't see without glasses anymore, the last thing you're going to be able to do stand in the shower, while you're giving your conditioner a minute or two to sit, and you're going to be able to read the back of that bottle because it's too darn small, you can't see that.

And they want it that way.

There's a lot of ingredients. And sometimes the only way they could get it in there is to make this font smaller. So a lot of people really aren't. You know, if it smells nice, if it feels good, if it doesn't leave an oily residue, or it doesn't over dry your skin or make your skin cracked, people just carry on and keep using it. So they're not going to look at what's going into a pet product. and nine times out of 10 if they've ever even used a grooming product that may have come from a vet initially. And then they're using a groomers. So they're thinking, well, the onus is off me because now it's the vet or the groomer’s responsibility to know what's in that. And I'm trusting them that what they're using is safe.

And that's what we're going to talk about today. So let's talk about grooming products. Why do we need to take a closer look at these grooming products that are going on our dogs?

Well, I think the biggest thing that was alerted to me about eight or nine years ago was that a lot of the cosmetics ingredients reviews, or the EWG groups, any of those actual groups who look at the ingredients and test them for safety. Some of those are nonprofit groups, and some of them, basically, all of them, they don't have enough time in the day to look at anything that's labeled for pets, so they don't actually look at anything that's legal for pets. So there's very, very little regulations. Never mind, I mean, dog grooming itself is an unregulated industry, it's all self regulated. So you've got an unregulated industry with a lot of, you know, self starters, or self learnt self taught people which there is nothing wrong with. But there's nothing out there to even educate the groomers, or the pet owners on what are the ingredients in pet shampoo, if it's got a shiny ad, if it smells good. If it lathers up well, if it. leaves it clean. And the dogs nice and fluffy at the end of Mrs. Jones is happy? Well, that's all that, you know, really is considered.

And I'm sure dogs really care about how great they you know, they smell like a daisy or rose. Okay, well, I know for a fact that a lot of synthetic fragrances, which are found in most of these products, they've been linked to cancer. And they actually cause reproductive toxicity. I mean, there are studies that show this. So I mean, these ingredients, you know, we look at them, and we're like, well, I don't know what that means. I don't know that word. But if you really strip it down, these are carcinogens. These are pesticides, and all sorts of irritants that actually have a negative effect on what is the largest organ there, Wendie?

Oh, that would be the skin Krista.

Again, yeah. Okay, well, all of this is being absorbed into your dog's skin and therefore into your skin. So if we can start with what are these ingredients that we need to avoid?

Alright, I'm glad you asked. I want to actually pick up on your comment about scents as well about them being carcinogens and stuff. And I formulated my own that it was scent free, not initially. And I bought a lot of scents as well from a very, very reputable company, about possibly putting scents into them. Until I broke down the ingredients in the scents alone. The length of ingredients was mind blowing, and just tons and tons and tons of chemicals. And even at that I stopped and I want I'm not even going to put that in there. But the main thing that we're finding that's already existed in a lot of products, and what is quite amusingly being advertised in the big, glossy, glossy magazines and human cosmetics is the little button that comes up on the screen or on the page. And it says now paraben free. And there was no big hoo ha about that. There was no big fanfare or circus or parade. It just all of a sudden started appearing. now from the ingredient. are the products that I was carrying one I had to unfortunately, I had to drop due to this whole pallava that's going on in the world last year. But one of the lines that I still carry, they've always been paraben free. And that's the kind of people that I work with. And it was like, Well, why, and they showed me the science, they showed me the information, they showed me the writing on the wall, that all of these parabens are endocrine disruptors, where even a nurse validated this were little boys are being born with innies... And we're not talking belly buttons. So the fertility rates are changing. And any skin barrier deficiency, which means as simple as a paper cut, a lot of people go well, I don't have a skin barrier deficiency, because I don't have an autoimmune condition, or bla bla bla, bla bla and open sores, doesn't mean that it means the tiniest little paper cut that allows anything into your skin, or the dog's skin, or how many groomers just got scratched, because they just trimmed the nails on the dog. And they're all back of their hands is wide open. All that stuff's going straight into your bloodstream, including the dog’s. So it's funny because I know you're in the US, and I'm up in Canada. And there was a thing where you could only bring in a certain amount of paraben content and an a product to get it across the border to pass through Health Canada. So they then very cleverly, or sneakily decided, well hang on a minute, instead of calling it paraben, Let's go to propylparaben methylparaben, and break it down to five or seven different ones, where they could be all under 1% each, but collectively could be maybe 6%. Sneaky, so very sneaky. So things like that have been building up. And now a lot of companies are getting rid of them. Because they must know that. You know they've seen that? Well, I mean, if you go to the the Cancer Institute 97% of breast cancer tumors tested contained parabens. So that's just shocking. And it's this kind of stuff that's building up in your system that you can't get rid of. Now you're wondering, Well, why is that important to my dog? Well might not be important to your dog, but your dog doesn't apply this product itself. It doesn't have opposable thumbs. So it's very important to me for the groomers, that they get more educated and knowledgeable about this, because there's a lot of groomers that I've known in my career that have died from cancer. And they've never looked at the products they've been using to make any correlation to it whatsoever. Is there? I don't know. Is there not? I don't know. But there's only you know, so many things that aren't coincidences.

Yep. I agree. And not only for groomers, but you know, people like me that I actually grew my own dog.

Right.

You know, I need to know what I'm using is safe for my dog and myself. Yeah. So I looked up the top. No no's as far as ingredients, and I just would like you to, you know, chime in on what what these are and why they're bad for our dogs and ourselves. How about DEA?

DEA is something that you don't want in there. Oh, I wish I could remember the big long word that it actually is

Diethanolamine. Even saying. it, If I can't say it, I shouldn't use it.

Exactly. Right. And I'll go back to another one of those a big long word in a minute, which we'll I'll teach you how to say. But DEAs, MEAsAs. They're all to do with methyls to a point. So it's like an alcoholic byproduct byproduct horribly synthesized, blah, blah, blah. It's something else you just don't want in your system. So you won't find DEAs or MEAs and a lot of products but they are there. They are there in an awful lot of cosmetics.

Okay, and this makes the dog shampoo sudsy?

Yeah, great. Wow.

SLS (sodium laureth) or SLES (sodium lauryl ether sulfate)?

Okay. All right. So SLS is the most common surfactants. So SLS is sodium lauryl sulfate. SLES is sodium laureth sulfate, which is a gentler version of SLS. So if you're looking at your shampoo compared to say, baby shampoo, your shampoo may be SLS, the baby shampoo with SLES. So it's just a milder, gentler, less abrasive, less harsh, less stripping, less drying. Now, there's lots and lots of fear mongering around that. And it's not so much the actual ingredient, but it's the process of how they got there. So SLS was basically fear mongered and blacklisted. From a smear campaign in the 80s in the on the internet, that it causes cancer that it does this that it does that does the other. If you actually research it through the Cancer Institute, there are no causes from SLS. However, the process of making SLS, there can be a byproduct created called 14 dioxane that is cancer causing hands down, no question. So it's almost like saying, Okay, I've got I'm having beef for supper. So is that beef? Dog food quality? Or is that beef, Kobe beef. So there's a huge difference in that whole spectrum as to what side of that that goes on, but it still can be labeled as beef. So SLS would be the same way. Is it coming from a very cheap, quick, fast and dirty production, where they don't care what's off gassing or being produced and doing it or what heat or how fast or what is developing, they're just getting it done and getting it out there? Or is it something is slower done with some better ingredients to begin with. And it's processed a different way that that 14 dioxane never even raises its head. So I mean, I don't know how they actually create SLS. If I was to go into a lab to create it itself, I wouldn't know where to start. But somebody does somewhere. So they know whether that's coming from, well, if you want to say your dollar store quality, or your your Marriott Hotels or whatever, I don't know what end of the spectrum to the other as to what the quality is. And you can usually tell what it's going to be by the price of what that product is sitting on the shelf. Now there's two sides to that sword, that product that's sitting on the shelf at $20. You may never, ever have heard of that company before. You may never have seen the name. And then you've got one beside it. That's also $20. But you've seen the TV ads, you've seen the happy little puppies jumping rind after their owners or playing in the tub, or lovely marketing done, where they've done campaigns where you see the name that's been attached to charities, or road trips, or whatever else it is kids camps, right? What's that $20 paying for? In that well known brand? Yeah, marketing? Right, exactly the same as your dog food. So you want to ask is that there? It's terrible, where we cannot take things at face value anymore. And we haven't for a while, it's just that we've missed the plot. And the fact that we've been just carry on on doing what we're doing and thinking we're fine, and that nobody would ever lie to us. And then you go hang on a minute, something not right with that, or somebody takes a bad reaction or whatever. And then the light bulb goes on, and you really start digging and you don't know where to stop after a while.

Well, sure. And you mentioned, this is an unregulated industry. So I've heard that many manufacturers actually buy their source ingredients, and then mix them with other chemicals to develop their own product. Right. So, I've heard the term greenwashing. So they're marketing this as a natural product. And they have very loose claims, of course. And to your point, it's all about boosting the sales and their marketing efforts. So it's awful.

Yes, that's awesome. Because as we were chatting earlier on, I was just jotting down some keywords. And I have greenwashing right here beside me on my notepad. Because one of the big things with that is, yeah, you can mix all of these products and all the rest of it. And it's funny actually, that's how I got started and what I was doing and delving into the products because I would go to these big trade shows, go to these manufacturers reps, and go, okay, what's in it? Or what do you want to know that for? Oh, it's proprietary ingredients. Oh, it's a trade secret. Oh, it's this or the other. And then I found a wonderful company called Show Season. And I said, you tell me what's in it. Sure. Here. I'm basically get handed a file with the ingredients for every shampoo. I said, so how come you're going to tell me this? But him him him? him her them over there? are not willing to? And she's like, well, half the times they don't know because they're buying it from somewhere else Exactly. Like you said, right. And secondary is because I will give you the recipe. But I won't give you the quantities of the or I'll give you the ingredients but I won't give you the recipe. Hmm. Big difference. And it was like, Huh, right. So that was interesting. Plus a lot of this greenwashing if you're thinking that SLS is bad Scary and SLES is bad and scary. And then you look at the big long one, which I think is the best one, which is the cocoamidopropyl betaine. Yeah, thank you, Barbara Bird, big shout out to a mentor from the very beginning of my career. But she was the one who taught us in a seminar. If you're going to learn to talk about this stuff, you're gonna have to learn to say it. Yeah. So she had a sing it. So that was, that was very, very fun. And I've never forgotten that as a Yeah, I'm not going to sing it. I won't pierce your eardrums of your listeners. But if you go back to all of this, they all originally start out as a coconut. So SLS is actually in to get to SLS. I don't have the equipment, I kind of do know how to get there. But I don't have the equipment to do it. But you are starting with a coconut. So if you look at this greenwashing and you look at the back and you go, Oh, this is making me feel so nice, because it's just coconut derived. And that's how they label their ingredient. Well, coconut derived can be SLS, with 14 dioxane as a byproduct, which is highly carcinogenic. So how fluffy are you feeling right now?

I’m not feeling fluffy.

Now, it's almost criminal. I mean, we can be blindsided enough. But when it comes to Fluffy there in the corner, possibly getting hurt or having a toxic buildup of chemicals in his system by the age of five and having seizures or whatever, then to me, that's my purpose. That's why I'm here. And I want to help that from being avoided.

Well, we appreciate that. The one thing we didn't cover, as far as bad ingredients are artificial dyes. Not only do we think that the shampoo that our dog is in, has to smell good. And lather well, but it has to be a pretty color. Can you talk to that?

Oh, that's a whole other show. It is basically unless it's a temporary color, i.e. food color, chalk, or water base colorant. Critter Color by Warren London is a great one, then stay the away from it. Because you do not want anything else acting on that. And everybody go Oh, well, we don't apply that skin level, go to a florists with a bunch of white carnations and ask them to show you how to change that bunch into 15 different colors. hairs do this same thing. And they wick the color into the skin, which goes into the bloodstream. So yeah, we're not going to even go there. But just don't do it people unless it's temporary.

So we're talking about the toxicity that all these chemicals are actually creating in our dogs. And I would think because I already had a dermatologist on the show once and the number one issue is allergies. Is skin irritation is hot spot is constant itching. So these bad grooming products are only exasperating the entire itchiness and dry skin of our dogs. Is that right?

Certainly can be absolutely the best to that that I can speak to is you go to a groomer or you go and buy some grooming products that are basically labeled to help itchy skin. Now, unless you know what you're looking at or what you're doing or you’re a professional groomer that's done some research. A lot of these products are so over drying. And if a dog's smelly and yeasty, stinky and itchy, then usually you want to get that cleaned. But if the chemicals or the The ingredients are too harsh, and over dry that skin, all you're going to do is upset the balance of the microbiome. So you've basically now created another issue and you add insult to injury because the dog's skin will go into hyperdrive to over produce sebum, which is the oiliness that creates the smelliness, which builds up and there we go again. So it's knowing how to gently look after that, how to deal with it from a gentle manner on a regular basis rather than a one and done because the one and done is not going to happen. The one I've done is going to continue forever. Unless you're really really lucky. I mean, there's always the one out there that that's going to work for but chances are it's coming back again the same time next year. So get that caustic product out, put the gloves on and away you go in a well ventilated area.

Yeah, speaking of which a lot of vet shampoos have that on the label. That should be a huge red flag right there.

Look at the vet books. And if you look at all the vet books and all of the the actual pictures in the vet books of a dog, the one thing that's not actually labeled is the skin,

The largest organ, yeah.

Right. So why is it not looked at?

And you said that a lot of groomers are bathing dogs in dawn dish soap?

Dogs are not dishes. Yeah, unfortunately, there still are. Put it this way. And this is where it came from. And unfortunately, a lot of people stayed in that mentality and never actually educated themselves or learned anything beyond that. But it started off with, that's all we have. That's all they had was dish soap. They didn't have pet shampoo, like come on. And you know, go back to the 70s, the 60s, we didn't have specific dog shampoo, this is a fad. So a lot of people are still in that mindset that all of these products out there now are just money grabbers. And this is really, really sad. How that that's looked at. But if you even I mean, Dawn dish soap is the one that's most commonly talked about, or named, because they have little fluffy ducks and everything else. But those are little fluffy ducks that were just saved from an oil spill, right? It's not just the little fluffy duck that you had on the back with your chickens. And if you actually write to Dawn, and email them, which you can and ask, Can I use your dish soap on dogs, you will get an email back and go. That's not what the products designed for. So there's that themselves. And they don't want that. It's basically that they agree as well that it's to be used in dire circumstances, when pretty much you've got the choice of degrease or death. And that's where you know, you're going to try and help these one time. Yeah, the animals and this oil spill, that may actually have a chance of surviving then, but it's certainly not supposed to be used for washing your dogs in. lots of people say as the best thing you can use for fleas, well, you know what, any good pet product that's applied properly, i.e. on a dry coat, and let sit for a little bit will also kill fleas. Right? It's as opposed to you don't want the dog done first and then go in with the with the shampoo. Because at that point, all the fleas have run up the nose or in the ears or up the bum or wherever else it can hide. Yes. But if you apply it on a dry coat and you let it sit, then it will actually get a lot of fleas as well. But yeah, I'm sorry,

Okay, so we're going to now switch no more doom and gloom. But okay, this is happening. So Wendie, you've created your own line of grooming products, because of this very reason what you saw out there and the damage that it's doing? And many of your products contain Colloidal Silver. So can you tell us what the benefits are? And why did you decide to take this on?

Sure. It was one of those Never Say Never scenarios as well where a few people have said Oh, you should make your own. I'm like, What would I do that for the wheel’s already invented and I like the wheel. until the wheel fell off with the pandemic and a lot of my groomers closed and had to shut down and therefore sales of my most popular products disappeared and therefore did not make sense for me to bring it in. But there was two of those products in that line that I absolutely loved and adored as did a lot of my clients. still didn't want me shipping and pallets of it across the country. So I was like, Well, what can I do? So I thought, Well, why don't I have a look into this and I know what I'm sure I'm looking for. And I also know that the Colloidal Silver which I've been making for years, and we also sell the Colloidal Silver under the Finnesiam brand. And I was like well, that would really add to having a nice topical which is gentle antibacterial anti inflammatory to a point. So that would replace a product that I had called Sooth, which of course you can still get just not with me. And that's from Show Season in case anyone is wanting to know and and also their True Tearless which is dye and scent free. So those would be my two top ones that I didn't have an alternative from in my other line that I sell. So it was like alright, let's get to work here and see if I can create something. And long story short I did and it's awesome. Sorry to toot my own horn there because I'm getting validation from an awful lot of people. Yeah, so yeah, with the colloidal it just made sense because I make it so it's an easy ingredient for me to have. Plus it's an incredible ingredient to have and the scent free. There's an awful lot of people who are scent sensitive. And I notice that whenever I moved to Nova Scotia, where a lot of buildings like the Y and all the hospitals, everything else were all sent free zones and They're very against it. And I find out that a lot of it is actually being caused to scent allergies from people who a lot of them worked in the fishing industry out here on the coast and have been using pure bleaches for so long, that it's pretty much destroyed their insides just breathing in the fumes. So the scent free was important. And the more I got into it, the more I thought, well, the olfactory senses of a dog and cat are so much more exaggerated than ours are, then maybe they'd be a little happier with a scent free too because they're not reacting to, when you pick them up from the groomer as to how wonderful they smell. They're reacting and happy about being groomed, because you're happy, right? They're picking up your energy and they're going Oh, my owner’s so happy. I must be so good. And they don't care that they smell like you know, a bouquet of roses or, you know, a manly manly smell or whatever. But they're just happy to have their haircut be pampered. And they're the star attraction for that particular hour of the day.

Yes. Well, Wendie we are running out of time. But I just wanted to quickly mention to everybody, I of course, with all of the products that we talked about here, I have to know like and trust. And I did try Wendie’s SCENTsitive, hypoallergenic shampoo on my dog Winston, who is a terrier with a very wirey coat. And I have to tell you, I love it for so many reasons. But I noticed right away that it doesn't smell it has no fragrance at all. And that's what I one of the reasons I love it. So unless your dog rolled in something stinky, they should not smell. And if they're being fed a fresh food, whole food or raw food diet, they should not smell. So I loved that it didn't strip his natural oils. It made his coat shiny and soft ,yet still course with his wirey coat. So I just I love what you are doing. So thank you for seeing a hole in your lineup and creating some amazing products. So Wendie where can everyone find out more information about you and Finnessiam Holistic Health, and your Dogs of Pride?

Well, thank you very much, Krista for those kind words as well. And I'm glad you enjoyed the product. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram, whether it's under Dogs of Pride, which is the part that looks after the products more than anything else. And then FinnessiamHealth.com, which is our brand and Finnessiam Holistic Health, which is my holistic health practice, where we can delve into all sorts of things as well. You can get me at FinnessiamHealth.com, or https://www.dogsofpride.com/ and our YouTube channel is Dogs of Pride. And you can also watch for Quantumly Yours Podcast as well, which just came out last week.

That's so exciting. And Wendie and her team are making a special offer to our listeners to try any of her amazing grooming and health products. So you just have to use the code WOL15 at checkout. And that will give all of our listeners a 15% discount to try any of the products at FinnessiamHealth.com. And I will put all of this great information with the links in the show notes so that you guys can get there automatically. And Wendie real quick. You said that you're also a health care practitioner with clients all over the world. How does that work? If anybody's interested?

Yes, ma'am. At FinnessiamHealth.com is the best one to go to on our Contact Us page. You can book a remote consult there. We work remotely, virtually whatever you want to call it. And it's energy testing. We're basically quantum practitioners, we work in that lovely field of everywhere and anywhere. We're all connected, so we can look after you and test for allergy sensitivities, parasites, nutrient deficiencies and all sorts of fun stuff and either yourself or your pets.

Well, you are doing amazing work. We appreciate you for that. And hopefully we've changed some of your minds as far as grooming products. And even if you have your dog groomed by a professional groomer, bring your own products. It's your dog and you have to be their advocate. Wendie, thank you so much for sharing such great information today.

Thank you so much Krista. It has been a pleasure.

Thanks again to the team at Finnissiam Health for sponsoring this episode.  Check out the their fantastic lineup of non-toxic grooming products by going to FinnessiamHealth.com and be sure to use the code WOL15 for 15% off!  And 10% of sales go toward supporting animal rescues.

Thanks for listening, you'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit https://www.wagoutloud.com/ for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our bark about it page where you can suggest topics guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. you're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode?