Don’t Give Antibiotics or Probiotics to Your Dog Without Listening to This Podcast!

Hi!  This is Krista with Episode #129 on the Wag Out Loud Pawdcast. I am so thrilled to share that I am expanding the Wag Out Loud business.  Because I’m an influencer who is obsessed with helping other dog parents be the best advocate for their dogs’ health and wellness and because others trust in my product recommendations, I’ve decided to become a Dog Brand Liaison and have teamed up with the manufacturers of my favorite canine products to act as a liaison between those manufacturers and the brick and mortar or online retailers. I serve those retail owners that are interested in carrying safe and functional products for their dog-loving customers. These are products that I know, like and trust and that should be on every dog owner’s shopping list! These are Products made ethically, that can’t be found in the big box stores, many that are patented and made in the U.S. I am very choosy with who I partner with and enjoy connecting small businesses with other small businesses, all on a mission to improve the lives of dogs and the people who love them.

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Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.

Holly Ganz, BS, MS, PhD, is the Chief Science Officer for AnimalBiome. She has studied the interaction between microbes and their hosts for over 20 years and shifted her focus to the microbiomes of dogs, cats, and their wild cousins 15 years ago. She started AnimalBiome in 2016 based on work that she began at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine and the UC Davis Genome Center. Holly has published over 30 peer reviewed articles on the microbiome and animal health.

Carlton Osborne, JD, is the Chief Executive Officer for AnimalBiome. He started his professional career as a lawyer after graduating from Stanford Law with a focus on business law. He transitioned from law to business 20 years ago and was involved with five start-ups as head of business development, general manager and Chief Executive Officer.  Carlton and Holly are high-school sweethearts and Carlton joined AnimalBiome full-time 3 years ago.

Welcome dog lovers to another fascinating episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I have been so looking forward to this learning opportunity with Dr. Holly Ganz and Carlton Osborne, who are going to be giving us a warning of don't give antibiotics or probiotics to your dog without listening to this podcast. So Holly and Carlton, please introduce yourselves and tell us why it's your mission to use science to unlock the mysteries of the pet gut microbiome.

Hi, I'm Holly Ganz. And I'm a microbial ecologist, which means that I study how bacteria and other microorganisms that live inside of the digestive tract of animals, especially cats and dogs, interacts and affects their health. I started AnimalBiome based on research that I was doing at UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine and the UC Davis Genome Center, where I found that imbalances in the composition of bacteria in the gut microbiome of pets (cats and dogs,) was often out of whack and that this was associated with the use of antibiotics. I am on a mission to try and improve gut health for our pets through the reintroduction of beneficial gut bacteria and try and minimize the use of antibiotics.

And Carlton!

Sure. My name is Carlton Osborne. I'm the Chief Executive Officer of AnimalBiome. I like to say that my claim to fame is that I met Holly when I was in grade school and married her. My background is that I'm a business person. I started my career as a lawyer moved over to the business side more than 15 years ago. This is my fifth startup. And when Holly was at UC Davis and doing this research, I realized that you know, she may be on to something with with looking at the microbiome. So I was an early supporter, cheerleader, investor in AnimalBiome and joined AnimalBiome full time about three years ago. And I'm really happy to be aligning my business capabilities with my passion for animal health in cats and dogs. And happy to be here.

Well, I appreciate both of you the work that you're doing and you make a fantastic team, both professionally and personally. Well, I think by now that most of us understand how our dog’s gut microbiome plays a huge role with their immune system. And the microbiome helps protect against disease and of course, maintains healthy digestion and regulates hormones. So really, is it safe to say that a healthy microbiome equals a healthy dog?

I would say that a healthy microbiome is foundational to having a healthy dog. Of course, there can be other things that go awry in the complex system that is a dog.

Sure. Well, you guys are gonna share with us what actually happens when you add antibiotics into the equation. And yes, we're talking about dogs. But this all applies to us humans as well. Right?

Absolutely.

Cool. Okay. Well, before we do the deep dive, Can one of you define what antibiotics actually are?

Right! That's a great question. So antibiotics are included in a group of compounds that we refer to as antimicrobials. More broadly, they are used to control the overgrowth or like over abundance of pathogenic bacteria, but also fungi and anti parasites are sort of broadly now included in antimicrobials. And they are really foundational for veterinary medicine. I think that modern medicine really came of age once the antibiotics were discovered by Alexander Fleming and then brought into production as something that could be widely available.

Okay. And I think a lot of times antibiotics are prescribed for GI issues, right?

Yes, especially Metronidazole all and then also Tylosin are very commonly used for GI issues in dogs. Yep.

Well, is it true, I think I've read that oral antibiotics cannot differentiate between the “bad bacteria” that may be causing the bacterial infection that the antibiotics are prescribed for. So they can't differentiate between the bad and then the good bacteria that is actually supporting your dog's health. So it wipes out both the beneficial and the harmful. Is that right?

Yeah, that's right. Like I said, they knock out the good along with the bad. And then there's some groups like with metronidazole, E. coli, which can be a commensal, that's normally found gut of a dog. It's not harmed at all by metronidazole, so it can become over overly abundant. Similarly clostridium difficile as antibiotic resistance genes, which allows it to flourish when the other groups get get knocked down.

It's just I don't know, maybe it's me, it sounds like a vicious cycle. So if, if your dog is taking antibiotics for GI issues, but these antibiotics can throw off the balance in your dog's gut, wouldn’t that result in vomiting, diarrhea, constipation and other digestive problems?

It can. I think, I think, recently, people have really started to dig into this. I think the conventional wisdom in veterinary medicine prior to the last few years was that healthy dogs or would recover and they didn't really look, think about, well, maybe this wasn't a healthy dogs to begin with it you gave this medication to and are they recovering to the same extent. And really, just last year, they published an article showing that healthy dogs actually not all of them will recover the full diversity of gut bacteria after metronidazole exposure.

Do antibiotics work against all type of bacteria? Or are there some that are resistant to antibiotics?

It's pretty complicated. So there aren't, I don't think any antibiotics that just kill all bacteria because some bacteria are more susceptible than others, to the different kinds of antibiotics that are on the market. But antibiotic resistance is a really clear way in which these organisms can evolve resistance as well. So even if they historically had been susceptible to a drug, they can get a gene from another bacteria. So bacteria like pass genes to each other, and become resistant. And this is a real and growing problem for us, as we rely heavily on antibiotics to control for severe infections by bacteria.

I was just gonna ask Holly to talk a little bit about sort of antibiotic stewardship and the idea that, you know, it's a growing trend in human medicine as well as veterinary medicine, that vets should be very judicious in the use of antibiotics. And they should identify the microbe they're trying to control and then use the least amount of antibiotic to control that microbe. And I think that, like in human medicine, antibiotics are so useful, but they've been overused and not as narrowly used to address a specific infection. And so that's part of what Holly's talking about that, like, you know, metronidazole is great at reducing the amount of diarrhea a cat or dog may have, but it's wiping out other bacteria that are useful and it's sometimes not being used in a judicious way.

That's a great point, Carlton. Are most doctors, do they know that it is a bacterial infection in the first place? Or do they just… Is it the go to to prescribe antibiotics, even for viral infections?

I'm not sure if they're using it for viral infections. But in my own experience with veterinarians that I've worked with who I consider to be very talented individuals, they don't have access to the right diagnostic testing. So they usually will just reach for it without testing for a specific abundance of a certain group of bacteria.

Okay, you two. So if antibiotics can be detrimental to the health of our dogs, why should we even use them?

Well, because a bacterial infection can can kill you or kill your dog. So that means it's like things like sepsis. My dog developed hemorrhagic gastroenteritis, and metronidazole, which is like acute bloody diarrhea, and is life threatening, and they end up with vomiting as well. And they just lose, you know, they become severely dehydrated and, and it responds very well to metronidazole. The problem with that this is it. So it's a very useful tool, it can help to reduce infection, and help the immune system to get things under control. It's just that the overuse of it without being able to restore the community of gut bacteria afterwards, can lead to these sort of medical merry go rounds where they end up with chronic conditions, like chronic diarrhea,

Right. And so really, the warning is, if your pet is sick, make sure that the vet is being judicious in their use of antibiotics. So like you said, you know, they shouldn't give antibiotics if it's a viral infection, so things like that. But then if they do give antibiotics, the question you should ask is, well, how do I help make sure that my pet recovers, because we know these antibiotics are going to sort of clean out the good with the bad and perhaps not address certain pathogens that can take over? And so that's really the question. When you have a sick pet, it's not going to antibiotics or doing antibiotics, it's Let's be thoughtful about when it's going to be used. And if it has to be used, then what do you do to restore your pet’s gut health.

Yeah, because there are other alternatives, like there are fibers that can really help to get diarrhea under control. And there's there are probiotics that don't harm the native microbes like that saccharomyces boulardii is a great example. I think more than 1000 studies showing that it can effectively reduce diarrhea in dogs and cats and humans. And it doesn't have any negative consequences on the community. It's got bacteria.

That's right. And one of the things that Holly and her team of scientists have found in our database, is that a lot of dogs that come to us about 30% have high levels of E. coli. And that is what is causing their diarrhea. And metronidazole does not reduce the level of E. coli in a dog's digestive tract. So in that case, metronidazole is not the right antibiotic to use if E. coli is what is causing the diarrhea. And so saccharomyces boulardii that Holly mentioned S boulardii, to those of us who have trouble pronouncing things, and but we've also found another product that simply targets E. coli. And we've added that into one of the products that we offer. So those would be alternatives to using antibiotics, particularly if the antibiotic isn't designed to target E. coli.

Makes sense. So what tips do you guys give? What can we do? If our dog needs to have antibiotics? Is there anything that we can do while they're on the antibiotics? And then we'll go over the tips for what we can do after?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I recommend having them if they're prone to diarrhea, having them on the S boulardii that we mentioned, because it really helps to support well formed stool and reduces significantly reduces diarrhea. And it's helpful. Sometimes people use probiotics when they're on antibiotics. We tend not to recommend those because they're not the native microbes that are found in cats and dogs. And if you use them after antibiotic exposure, they've actually been shown to delay recovery of the community of native bacteria in your dog's gut. So we recommend using an oral fecal transplant to restore the native community after your dog has had a course of antibiotics.

Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you said that. And we are at a point where we are going to take a quick commercial break and we are going to talk more about how you can give a supplement instead of an actual fecal transplant. So we will Be right back.

SPONSOR AD

Thanks to our friends at AnimalBiome for sponsoring today's episode.  They are brilliant at applying science to improve your dog’s health.  Did you know that 60-70% of your dog’s immune cells are located in the gut microbiome?  And when their microbiome is out of balance, it can lead to inflammation associated with GI and skin issues.  My dog Winston was tested and the results were shocking!  He had way too many harmful bacteria and too few strains of the beneficial bacteria.  No wonder his immune system was always compromised!  Thanks to the AnimalBiome team for getting him back on track so that he can live a much healthier life!  Isn’t it time to test your dog’s gut health? Learn more by going to AnimalBiome.com and be sure to use the discount code WOL-20 for 20% off!

And we are back with Dr. Holly Ganz and Carlton Osborne. And they are giving us the warning, don't give antibiotics or probiotics to your dog without listening to this podcast first. And we've gone over some amazing information… stuff I never knew. And Holly right before the break, you mentioned that a fecal transplant. You know, we've heard about those. But you guys have a product that it is in an oral supplement form. Can you please elaborate?

Sure. So a fecal transplant is a procedure where the stool from a healthy dog is given to one that is ailing. And it can be given by a veterinarian in a clinic, by an enima. And there are other forms of delivery that can be done more invasively or can be given an oral capsule. And what we've done is developed a way to take carefully tested and screened stool from healthy individuals and prepare it so they can be given in a in a freeze dried form in a capsule to a dog and reestablish a beneficial community of gut bacteria. I mentioned earlier that our dog had developed hemorrhagic gastroenteritis later in her life. And she was one of the first dogs where I gave her these capsules. And after having nearly two years of bouts of bloody diarrhea that was very scary, and life threatening for her. These capsules were able to reestablish the community and get her off this whole metronidazole merry go round.

That's amazing. So I know that you guys offer the gut microbiome test, and I have taken it with my dog Winston, I know a lot of our listeners have done it as well. It's amazing. So where would we test the gut microbiome? You know, let's say we do have a dog with GI issues. Before we go the antibiotic route, would you suggest getting tested first to see what we're up against?

I mean, ideally, you don't want you want to test it when you have, you know, a week or two to collect a sample, mail it back to us. And you know, it takes us about a week to process it after we get it. So if your dog is having bloody diarrhea like my dog Yuki was, then you can send in a sample, but you're going to probably need to go ahead and do something to make sure that they recover from that. So it's nice if you can, if you can sort of if you've been dealing with a chronic problem, if you can plan ahead a little bit and send it a test allow a couple of weeks for that process. But what we do recommend also, if you're going to do something like the oral supplements, we recommend testing beforehand so that we can know whether or not your dog has been experiencing elevated levels of E coli or other pathogens, or if they're missing some of these key beneficial groups of bacteria that are so foundational for health. That can help us give personalized recommendations to you so that you can better I think, achieve a better level of success with the supplements that you're using.

Yeah, I think… Sorry to jump in here. But I think part of it is where are you on your journey with your pets? Right. And so we would recommend that as part of a yearly sort of wellness exam that every pet parent is getting the microbiome test. Make sure they understand where their pet, how their pets, gut health is doing. In about 50% of the time, the recommendations out of the out of the microbiome test are around diet. So increased protein, increased fiber, sort of tweak your pet's diet to optimize their gut microbiome. And so if you think of that as like a baseline, then if they get sick, and they're having diarrhea, there's a baseline to refer to. And so we would encourage folks to be more proactive and not just wait until your dog is is having diarrhea. Or, or something like that to address their gut health. That's just the one plug, I wanted to put in there that don't wait till there's a problem. really be proactive about your pet’s gut health.

That's great. Okay. So let's say we do have to put our dog on a course of antibiotics. And Holly, you mentioned it's not ideal to give probiotics during their time of being on antibiotics. So would we give both pre and probiotics after the course of antibiotics?

I recommend using the yeast probiotic S boulardii during the course of antibiotics, as well as afterwards during the recovery. If you're using fecal transplants, or our gut restore supplement, it is not competitive with the native gut microbes, whereas most of the probiotics on the market have been shown to actually out compete some of the native bacteria that you're trying, you're working to help your dog recover. But I will give the caveat that if, for the long term, if you find that your dog isn't able to support a healthy microbiome, then they can be a useful tool just like antibiotics are a useful tool. But ideally, you shouldn't have to give probiotics every day if your dog is able to support a healthy community, and it's on a healthful diet. It's like vitamins. Ideally, you should be getting those through your diet, and you shouldn't need to take a multivitamin on a daily basis.

Right. That makes sense. And is it true that a dog's microbiome is also sensitive to other drugs and foods as well?

Yes, they have been starting to look at this in recent years and found that over 70% of medications commonly used in human and veterinary medicine do have unintended effects on the gut microbiome. I mean, especially of course, the antibiotics, antifungals anti parasites, but but also NDAIDs and other commonly used drugs for pain relief.

We can point out that integrative and holistic veterinarians that are more apt to find the reason a dog is having issues versus You know, there are some conventional vets that use antibiotics and other medications as a band aid. So I am a proponent, of course of integrative and holistic medicine, when possible. So I guess you guys are saying use antibiotics sparingly. And make sure that your veterinarian knows what the pathogen is that they're prescribing it for, is that pretty much how you're summing it up?

That's right. I mean, where we are integrative veterinary medicine is pretty common. And so what I really like about that is this balancing of the holistic approach with judicious use of antibiotics and other medications that can be really helpful for keeping your pet, you know, from suffering too much pain and helping to cure infections.

And are there any stories that you guys can share with us regarding this actual topic? Did you have a dog that was always on antibiotics? Their microbiome was not ideal, it was compromised? And how, through your testing and products, you brought them to having a healthy gut microbiome?

Yeah, we have so many stories. Carl which one should we should we share?

We've already mentioned Yuki, our dog, and you know, she, she did the fecal transplant capsules after many bouts of hemorrhagic gastroenteritis. And it made a huge difference. I mean, she lived until she was almost 17. And, you know, up until the very end, she was having perfect poop. And I credit the fecal transplant capsules for that. But you know, also we adopted a dog from a sanctuary up in Mendocino County, and he was really undernourished. And, and we found when we looked at his microbiome, that there were groups of bacteria that were more present that in animals that are calorie restricted, so he wasn't sick. But it was clear that his microbiome was impacted from his history of being been a stray. So we were able to actually use the microbiome testing to guide which food we fed how much protein he had in his diet, and really, ultimately nursed him to having a healthy microbiome. And, you know, it made a big difference in his behavior. You know, often these dogs end up in shelters because of behavior. And when he was actually getting the right nourishment, he was much calmer, much better behaved. And so it's not that the microbiome is this magic thing, but it is really connected to so many parts of a dog's health, that it's something that ought to be measured and nurtured along the way.

And Darwin is a great example because he had elevated levels of a group of bacteria, called Megamonas. And there have there was an article that came out, I think it's in the last year where they looked at shelter dogs and found that those dogs had had elevated levels of Megamonas, were more aggressive. And when we adopted Darwin, he had been abused, but he did have aggression issues and getting back at us, he had to learn to trust us. So I think it was complicated, but he also had a history of abuse. But I think having a microbiome that makes you agitated for food, because it was in sort of a starvation mode, it makes sense that that might promote aggression. And once we had him on the right amount of calories and a better balance, that group went back to normal levels. We also, of course, worked with a trainer. And now people can't believe that he had any of those problems. He's really sweet.

Yay, happy ending for Darwin. Great. Well, the exciting news is everybody that's listening. As I mentioned, I did do the testing with my dog Winston. And being that I have this podcast, and you know, I think that I'm doing the best for my dog, he had very high levels of E. coli. We found out and the results, how you guys display the results. And all of the recommendations on what to add or change with the diet. I did those and did the testing again. And it was night and day. He had a great gut microbiome as far as the results and going through the program. So I can't thank you enough for all that you guys are doing. And it was so easy, simple. So if anybody out there wants to try the microbiome test by AnimalBiome, I am an affiliate because I absolutely love this product. And if you go to AnimalBiome.com, and use the code, WOL-20, you will receive 20% off any of their products, including the test. So I highly recommend that all dogs have, as Carlton mentioned the baseline of where is their gut health right now and how can we improve it? So what would you guys like to leave us with before we sign off today?

Probably with the proverb that all ailments start in the gut. And that comes from Western medicine as well as Eastern medicine. And so if you can get your pet's gut in the right place, they will live longer and healthier lives.

Agree. Holly? Any last words?

Yeah, I guess also echoing that, that, you know, diet can be a really critical part of medicine, and you have to feed the microbes. And understanding how your dog's microbiome relates to the diet you're feeding can really be a way to maintain ongoing health as well.

That's great. Well, thank you, both of you for being here today. Where can everyone find out more information about you and AnimalBiome?

You can find us at https://animalbiome.com/. And we actually have a great team page. And you can read all about me and Holly and the rest of the team.

Wonderful. Well, again, thanks for all that you're doing. I know that with all the science that you guys are entrenched in that there are going to be more products to come. So thank you for your innovation and for helping pups all around the world.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks again to the team at AnimalBiome for sponsoring this episode.  Learn more by going to animalbiome.com and be sure to use the discount code WOL-20 for 20% off.  Your dog will thank you!

Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time.

Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode?